It´s the final days of 2024; a year troubled by conflicts, deep inequalities, environmental crisis, unbridled consumerism and technology that threaten to undermine human nature itself. War, that “great defeat”, seems to be spreading mercilessly to more and more corners of the Earth. And yet, in the midst of these turbulent times, the voice of Pope Francis translates into a worldwide consciousness that points to an alternative future.

In a world marked by accelerated transformations, the Church that he has led for more than 11 years is not lagging behind. Faced with of a progressively dehumanized and distant civilization, the Pope traces a different path for the Faith. A more dynamic, closer, and warmer Church is the legacy that Francis seeks to leave to history.

A few days earlier, the Assembly of the Synod of Bishops had concluded; a milestone of his papacy that brought new voices and debates to an increasingly horizontal ecclesiastical structure. In a few weeks, the Jubilee 2025 would begin; a worldwide celebration anchored in a message of forgiveness and hope.

It is an autumn afternoon in Santa Marta. For the third time in three years, Pope Francis grants me an interview. His warmth and sharp observations reveal his unique way of seeing the world.

You have defined war as “a human defeat” that deprives millions of people of their fundamental rights. Is it possible to construct a call for peace that would gain greater strength and help reduce both future and existing conflicts?

I am concerned that the countless calls for peace from international organizations go in one ear and out the other. There is also a fundamental hypocrisy: we talk about peace, but we start wars. I don’t know if I’ve ever said this, but one of the biggest returns from investments in Europe can be found in arms manufacturing. And thus, we organize peace conferences, peace meetings and we continue to produce lethal weapons.

Since at least 2014, you have been talking about this “Third World War in bits and pieces”, and reality seems to have confirmed it. You have also pointed out the paradox that people are dying while businesses that cause violence and death thrive. Where does this trend lead us?

It comes from below. I see a universal tendency towards self-destruction through war. In an age where scientific and mechanical progress is enormous and the tendency towards the destruction of oneself and the destruction of others so great, I think of the Tower of Babel. I wonder if this great universe that we have fabricated won´t end up being just another Tower of Babel. Is it not? But these are just ideas that come to mind.

At the moment, the two wars we are most focused on are in Ukraine and in the Holy Land. In both cases, there are criminal acts taking place. These are more guerrilla wars than conventional wars. You see a mother with her two children passing by on the street. She goes home to get something, and on her way back she is gunned down for no reason. Today, the war in the Holy Land is not a normal war, fought according to the rules of war. It is a terrible thing.

In the case of Ukraine, there is a great deal of hypocrisy. I am very concerned about this because, right now, they are sending 20-year-olds to the front. They do not have that many men, whereas Russia has a plenty. Peace treaties are urgently needed, but when one speaks of peace, people start beating about the bush.

Which international mechanisms would you say are currently failing?

I cannot say which specific mechanisms are failing, but it is certainly true that personal ethics are failing. There is a failure there. The meetings which are held to achieve peace are conducted with other interests in mind. And thus, those mechanisms fail.

Today we are witnessing wars with many civilian victims and in which previously unacceptable acts are tolerated in order to achieve certain objectives. Which mechanisms are failing and why do international calls sound so weak?

-I cannot say which specific mechanisms are failing, but there is certainly a personal ethic that is failing. The meetings that are held to achieve peace are meetings of interest. Yes, those mechanisms fail.

– Can this situation be resolved with increasingly weaker states and increasingly stronger economic forces?

Well, I think dialogue is important. In the case of Europe, the European Union has the capacity to foster dialogue. It must not lose the independence it has in this matter. This is what promotes its internal unity and from there it draws the strength to engage with the outside. These institutions have weakened a little, but they still have the capacity to foster dialogue.

-You are a religious leader but also a world leader, and indisputable reference. From the humanist and universal vision of the Catholic Church, what would be the tools to appeal to in order to try to changing course?

Dialogue is crucial. If there is no dialogue, there will be no peace. We must stop attacking one another, stop destroying one another, and start engaging one another. Peace is achieved through dialogue.

-Beyond wars, we live in a polarized world in which there are leaders who spread denialist or hate speech that does little to help dialogue. How can we avoid falling into the trap of extreme polarization?

Well, denialism is always poisonous. When one denies a reality, a history, a concrete situation, one is shooting oneself in the foot. A historical situation that is not resolved in time becomes a repetition of previous errors, it is a threat. Denialism is suicidal. Only reality will help you find a way out of conflict.

Behind every conflict there is either a truth, a just claim or a folly. So, we must try to address each truth, just claim or folly, but we must always address it through dialogue. The conflict is never solved by destroying one of the parties. It cannot be resolved by shooting, which is the destructive way of facing issues. Conflicts are always solved through dialogue and are overcome. When you are in conflict, you are in a labyrinth. You do not know how to get out. The only way out of the labyrinth is up. From the smallest conflicts to the great conflicts of humanity, they are resolved on a higher plane; by sublimation. That is the key.

You have stressed that when faced with complex and difficult-to-resolve situations, global and long-term solutions are required. How can this be achieved? Where can we start?

We must consider a very important principle: unity is always superior to conflict. So, conflict must be worked through in some way until unity is achieved. The same thing happens with peace and war. It is resolved and we move on to a higher plane. In moments of tension, I repeat these four principles: unity is superior to conflict, the whole is superior to the part, reality is superior to the idea, and time is superior to space. Human problems are resolved with these four parameters, which are not denialist. Rather, they are uplifting and always helpful.

In many current conflicts, extreme nationalism appears, sometimes accompanied by religious fundamentalism, which promotes intolerance and disdain towards others.

Danger is to be found when a religion becomes something like a state policy. From that moment on, religion is then linked to politics, and that doesn’t help. In the countries I visited, on my penultimate trip, this phenomenon did not exist. Even where there were large majorities, like in the case of Indonesia´s Muslims, there was always dialogue between different groups, respect and dialogue. I did not find religious persecution of Christians anywhere. Nor vice versa, from another religions. There is coexistence, those countries are an example of coexistence.

Francis, several countries, which are not very proud of certain episodes of their past, have apologized to their victims. You did so in Canada, personally. Do you think that apologies and forgiveness help heal wounds?

Yes, as long as the apology is sincere and not merely a diplomatic gesture. But when a mistake is recognized, dialogue is embraced and forgiveness is sought; I think it is always a good step towards peace, always, always. In the case of Canada – the whole tragedy of the schools that took away children to de-indigenize them – there was a great apology that had to be asked of the indigenous peoples.

This even applies to one´s personal life, right? When you quarrel with your husband you always must apologize, otherwise you can’t go on. I advise couples – this is a public service announcement [chuckles] – to quarrel as much as you need, so long as you make peace before the day is over. Because the next day´s Cold War is a dangerous one. That ability to say this was a mistake, to say let’s not continue with this war, to know how to recognize the error is such a humane act, so humane.

– Asking for forgiveness requires admitting and facing one’s own mistakes. Is it a common act or do people and countries find it difficult to do so?

We all find it hard to ask for forgiveness. We feel ashamed. We must get used to it and teach our children to ask for forgiveness from a young age. But we must think things through. Telling someone “Look, you went too far”, that is a good thing.  Ask your friend for forgiveness. Start educating children in that, so that they know which limit it is that they crossed. It is education that we need. Asking for forgiveness is humility. Looking at oneself with truth. In historical apologies, in great personal apologies and in everyday small apologies as well.

-In a changing world, you seem to approach a different type of evangelization… broader and more focused on others. What are the main guidelines of the Synod you have called?

The synod addresses the problems of humanity and today´s Church, and tries to resolve them through dialogue, through reflection by groups and individuals. It is no longer a Church with a top-down approach. It is no longer the bishops, the Pope, the priests, the nuns, but rather the Church from below that expresses itself and creates community.

I met with the women of the Synod. You should have seen the maturity of those lay women, there were about 100 of them; how they expressed their ideas, with such courage, something that would have been completely unheard of 40 years ago. Same with the men. The synod is what brings about a Church that moves forward, where everyone is united and that achieves harmony in the body. The key word of the synodal Church is harmony. Who creates harmony in the Church? It is the Holy Spirit. Saint Basil has a book about the Holy Spirit and at one point he says: He is harmony, He is the one who harmonizes with everything; sometimes, even in the midst of chaos. Let us think about what happened on the morning of Pentecost, a barbaric chaos, but in the midst of that chaos He created harmony, which would be to say, pardon the expression, that a good Church would be a Church that is a little chaotic, but that always seeks harmony; that always listens to everyone.

Does listening to everyone also mean walking with everyone?

I purposely want to touch on this subject because sometimes there is a lot of gossiping around it. People often ask me about who should be admitted into the Church and I say what Jesus said in the Gospel: everyone, everyone, everyone. And what about the sinners? Everyone should be admitted inside. Once inside, then we´ll sort out their situation, but first everyone must come inside. Everyone should come inside and once inside we can begin to discern; everyone can speak. And if someone sneaks in bad faith, with a bad disposition, they´ll be thrown out. It is one thing to not let someone in. And another thing is throwing out someone who is already inside and hasn´t behaved properly.

Everybody in, everybody…

Many say that the Church should condemn this one, that one. Yes, it condemns people’s morality, but it also aids in helping them walk. None of us in the Church are saints. We are all sinners, and the Church helps us make up for our shortcomings. Let us not forget this: all of us, all of us, inside.

Today the Catholic Church, unlike other religions that seem to embrace fundamentalism, stands out because of its openness.

What harms religious experience is dogmatism. Dogmatisms, which are ideology, are not religious fact. I remember when I was a child, there was a dogmatic stance, so to speak, that one could not go and visit the homes of divorced people. “They are in mortal sin.” Curious. It was a dogmatism, wasn’t it? With Protestants, for example, when Catholic groups burned their tents.

I remember a nice lesson from my grandmother. We were walking down the street; I was about four years old. In front of us were some women from the Salvation Army and I asked her: “Grandma, who are those women? Are they nuns?” They were wearing ribbons My grandmother told me: “No, no. They are Protestants, but they are good people.” I will never forget it. It was a lesson in ecumenism and not condemnation.

We must learn not to get entangled in our conflicts and exit upwards from the labyrinth.

Could this “overcoming” you talk about be a return to humanism?

Obviously, when you deny humanity, you deny even the religious. Because there can be no real religious action if it does not come from a man or a woman. Sometimes crude moralism denies human reality. It denies something that is one of the very attributes of God: it denies tenderness. A life without tenderness is unlivable. Why do I say that it is an attribute of God? God has three attributes that I like but which are entirely his own: closeness, mercy and tenderness.

God is always near, God is always merciful and has that tender, loving mercy. God caresses. Let us not forget that. A rigid humanism knows neither proximity nor mercy. A square clericalism, in religious matters, distances itself from all that.

To the priests who are going to hear confessions, I say, “please, guys, always forgive because God always forgives”. Forgive everything, because God forgives everything. Confession is not a session of psychoanalysis. Listen without asking too many questions and forgive. Don’t torture people. Confession is there to embrace, to receive.

You propose a different model in the face of very rigid and intolerant discourses that have captured many young people. How can we reach them today so that they can find other ways of thinking and acting?

Proximity, closeness. You cannot help a young person without closeness. Human closeness is dialogue, listening… a lot of listening. And in answering, you must give creative alternatives. Young people need to be creative. If not, they´re fools. If a young person is not creative in friendship, in social life, in love, in relationships… if they´re not creative in all those things, they´re poor fools. Help them in life to be creative, and to do something.

I don’t know if I told you about the experience of some young people who worked on charity nights feeding those who were on the street. They were lazy, but they did that with such love and that’s where they began their journey of faith. You give young people a challenge, that’s how they’ll grow. If you don’t give them a challenge and help them face it, they’ll just keep orbiting around nonsense.

There is also a cultural battle waged by some far-right forces that even question the social doctrine of the Church.

Christianity is not an ideology; it is an experience. It is an experience that one grows along the path that God gives to each and every one of us. The young people who go to work in solidarity share an experience that commits them in life.

On the other hand, there are ideological positions that end up spawning monsters. When you see young people who belong to these organizations that are more ideological than Christian – rightwing, leftwing, whatever – they are little monsters clinging to the idea, right? How does this young person treat his boyfriend, his girlfriend, his husband, his wife? There you see that there is a deformation of the person´s very love.

-There is a value that seems to prevail over all others, among many young people: money, which dehumanizes us as a society and pushes us towards extreme individualism.

You used the word money. My grandmother used to say: “the devil enters through your pocket.” Money corrupts you if you don’t know how to use it well; if you are not committed to something, you won´t use it well. You´ll end up putting your hope into money.

Did I tell you the anecdote about my cousin? My father´s cousin, actually. He was quite stingy, very rich. He didn’t have children. He lived with his wife in a gated community; he had a whole block. His mother got sick and eventually died. But before the children took care of her one day each. They had to give her a yogurt in the morning and one in the afternoon. He was so stingy that he gave her half in the morning and half in the afternoon. He got to that point. But he was famous for being stingy, for his greed. And when he died, I couldn’t go to the funeral, but another cousin went. I called her a few days later and asked her how it went. She said: “It was a disaster.” “What happened?”, I asked her. She said: “They couldn’t close the coffin. He wanted to take everything with him.” That joke makes you think that he didn’t take anything at all.

On the other hand, if you earn it well and use it well, it makes you great. A generous person who always seeks to help others has a big heart.

There are people who are half-generous. When I confess, I usually ask them: “Do you give alms?” They usually say yes. The second question: “Do you look the person who gives you alms in the eyes? Touch their hand.” “Oh, I don’t know…” They pull away and look the other way. Look at the person! They are asking for it. Embrace them!

Thinking about young people, today we have seen the reemergence of economic adjustment models that target education and culture.

Making cuts in education is a planned suicide for a country. You cannot do it. These types of cuts in the educational development of a country are a crime.

I am happy when I see, in various situations, so many people who oppose these adjustments, even young people. They realize this and they oppose it, they make a fuss, they complain. Because education is food. It is the same as taking food away from people. It is food for the soul, for the mind, for the spirit.

Sometimes, in countries that are a bit dictatorial, whether with avowed dictatorships or covert dictatorships, one of the main victims is education. Either they make it ideological to change your mind or, in the free market case, they slowly prune it. And only the children of the rich can have access to higher education.

In our country, the history of education is very beautiful, and our people have always had the perception, the feeling that education is one of the things that cannot be touched. A School is like a second home, that is how it was presented to us: The teacher! My first teacher accompanied me, I accompanied her. She came to the archbishopric until she died, at the age of 98.

Universities are fundamental. People need to be educated with a great university culture. And a country must provide the resources for its university to create the new brains of the future. In Argentina we have a good reputation. How many of our professionals are in high demand abroad?

-In Argentina, for example, education has not only been the great factor of upward social mobility, but also a nation-building idea.

Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. A school within everyone’s reach, a university within everyone’s reach; that is one of our sources of pride. We hope that our university continues to have that prestige.

Throughout your experience as a teacher, you have emphasized the inclusion of literature in education, including priestly education, as way opening minds towards different worlds and horizons.

In this case, literature is crucial. We cannot train ignorant priests who have never read Dostoyevsky, for example. They must have a humanistic foundation. As I told you, I am shocked that they have not had an education, even self-taught, in the arts, in literature, also music, but, above all, in literature.

We must foster a taste for literature both in our personal education and in our priestly education. Because it is part of a person´s humanism. Scientism alone is of no use; it makes you a good instrument, but a heartless instrument.

Martín Fierro is a work of art. Guiraldes presents us with first-class works of art. There are great writers who can help us move forward. Borges is a great man. Let’s explore both our own works and universal masterpieces as well.

-You gave a wonderful speech at the G7 about artificial intelligence. You defined it as “a fascinating and tremendous instrument.” What are the advantages and what are the risks we face? Are you concerned about its progress?

-I am more concerned about natural intelligence because there are so many different things going on (laughs). Artificial Intelligence is a challenge: either we accept it or we will be eaten by ants. We must accept it with human criteria. What I said at the G7 is along those lines, it is a challenge for today. We cannot dehumanize ourselves in front of Artificial Intelligence, but we do have to engage in a humane dialogue, with an Artificial Intelligence capable of engaging in a humane dialogue. We must do it.

With 2024, the year of prayer ends, and the Jubilee 2025 begins under the motto “Pilgrims of Hope”. What is the spirit of this celebration, which will be the second of your papacy?

Jubilees are an ancient practice. They date back to the Old Testament, but they were jubilees in the proper manner. During the jubilee, all debts had to be forgiven. That is why some scoundrels would ask for loans two or three years in advance.

Jubilees are about total renewal, about forgiveness. Sometimes I am afraid that it will be associated with religious tourism. No, to experience a jubilee properly, it must come from within and, in some way, it must be to sort out your personal history somewhat. In that sense, it is a moment of forgiveness, of joy, of reconstitution of so many personal and social things.

A jubilee that is limited to tourism is useless, that frightens me. That is why I am going to extend the jubilee to all the dioceses, so that each person in their city can celebrate the jubilee without having to travel, although many will travel. But the important thing is the ability to forgive, to sort out so many inner histories that one has stored there and does not dare to confront. A true conversion of life. In this I encourage you, when you have an inner burden, or something like that, to find a good confessor, one of those who forgive a lot and sort out your situation well. Jesus forgives everything. That would be the great motto of the jubilee: the Lord forgives. It is not about tourism.

–In our cities, what should we do to be forgiven?

Wanting to be forgiven, nothing more. Telling the Lord to forgive you. Wanting to be forgiven. If you tell a priest to forgive you, he will forgive you. God never tires of forgiving, it is we who get tired of asking for forgiveness, don’t forget that.

These days you are publishing two autobiographies. I think you even published one early, right?

One is Life, an excellent work by Fabio Marchese, about how I lived through certain historical moments.

The other one, by Carlos Musso, was planned to be published after my death. But since I’m not dying [laughs], they are afraid it will lose relevance and decided to do it now. I don’t know how it will turn out.

-You will have the opportunity to read and evaluate it. In this regard, how would you like to be remembered?

-When I am in private, I tell myself a truth. I tell myself that I am a poor unfortunate person whom God has had much mercy on. I believe that this way, with this truth, I can be remembered very well. If I am remembered like this, it is good. Yes, God’s mercy is great (he smiles).

-Do you truly believe this? [smiles]

Yes, yes, I feel very small.

Let us first hope that a long time passes before you are remembered [smiles]. I believe that your imprint is that of a very brave pontiff, who made great transformations and had a great vision of his times.

-It’s true that there were transformations, because they had to be done. But did you see how easy they were? Because everyone was expecting it. Now what’s coming is a female prefect of the Dicastery and we´ll take it from there. Let the women come in.

-Based on your work, how do you imagine the Church in the coming decades?

I think the Church is already well designed, by the intuition of God, by the Holy Spirit who guides it and the decisions that the Church has been making. Such as decisions in the Dicasteries, in the Vatican organization. Then the diocesan Church – where the laity is very involved – is well designed, I imagine it growing like this because the spirit is leading it.

Think that before, you could imagine a parish where the priest was in charge, nothing more. Today that parish cannot exist. The parish must be the community that interacts with the priest looking for a path, dialogue is very important. I see the church following this dynamic.

-What would you say to the Argentine people this Christmas?

-To the great Argentine people, cheers! Keep fighting, defend yourselves from ideologies and don’t let yourselves be fooled, fight for your rights.

-Francisco, thank you, thank you very much as always for your generosity and your time.

Thank you for your patience [smiles]

 

From December 24th and throughout the Holy Year, hope is the compass that Francis points out to us for humanity and for the Church. A year in which forgiveness and justice should help to build new horizons.

In his Message for the World Day of Peace, Pope Francis suggests three concrete proposals for 2025: the cancellation of foreign debt, the abolition of the death penalty and a global fund for the definitive elimination of hunger.

“Peace,” he reminds us, “is not achieved only with the end of war, but with the beginning of a new world, a world in which we discover ourselves to be different, more united and more brotherly than we had imagined.”

Such is hope, it surprises and opens horizons, it makes us dream the unimaginable, and makes it come true.

Hope does not disappoint